Thems the Rules

[jamesq]

During my echat with ya_inga yesterday an interesting digression came up about following the rules. I mentioned that I didn't agree with the rules about how the crown/coronet where determined. She replied that she didn't understand how I could be willing to play a game I didn't agree with (ya_inga - feel free to jump in here if you think I'm putting words in your mouth) - as an analogy she said it would be like her coming into an archery field and insisting that she not have to use a bow.

Do you have to agree 100% with the rules to play the game? I submit that you don't. You have to abide by the rules certainly. And I'll grudgingly accept that if there were a "if you don't like it STFU" rule you should abide by that one too.

There is no STFU rule in the SCA - as anyone who's ever been to any sort of meeting can attest to. If there was such a rule, I'd pull the eject eject eject lever so hard I'd get a nose bleed.

I can play baseball without agreeing with the designated hitter rules. If I were a coach I might even simply not use any designated hitters so long as I don't object when the other side does use them. If the media asks my opinion on designated hitters I'm free to tell people I think it's a bad idea that sells out some of the soul of baseball in a misguided effort to push up the score to get people more excited about the game. If I'm on a commission to examine the official rules of baseball I can make my case and push my agenda.

I can do all that even if I think it's a lost cause. I might even do it precisely because I love baseball.

Getting back to the SCA, I personally don't agree with the rules of how we pick crowns/coronets. For you non-SCAdians - assuming any of you are still reading - the winner of an armoured tournament gets to be King or Prince for six months. They don't have to be popular, they don't have to be knowledgeable about the SCA, they don't have to have leadership abilities of any kind. They just have to be able to win a fight in a very specific martial art. It would be like having a judo match to decide who's in charge of the community association.

I still abide by the rules. When the herald says "all rise", I stand up. When everyone chants "long live Cletus and Lurline, your undoubted King and Queen", I chant along with them. I bow to them when they go by and generally pretend that they really are royalty instead of just being regular people play-acting in an elaborate LARP.

Now I have no problem with that, I just think they should spread the wealth around. Make half the crowns/coronets chosen this way but have them alternate with other SCA activities. I'd love to see one reign out of six be decided on an archery contest. There'd be a lot more interest in rapier or A&S if they occasionally generated Kings and Queens by there own hand.

I think this would make the SCA a more inclusive game. I think it would broaden the perspectives of many and it would put more of an emphasis on cross-training. I think it would keep the crown/coronet from becoming an old-boy network.

Let me respond to the most likely counter arguments here.

It's not very medieval.

Neither is picking the ruler through one-on-one double elimination tournaments. Even the personal combat model it emulates was rarely used in the real world. If realism of reenactment is your goal, pick rulers by winning war scenarios instead. Hell, more rulers came to power through assassination then personal combat, but we don't have elaborate games of killer every six months (though that would be kind of fun).

That's how we've always done it.

The SCA has evolved considerably from the shag-carpet-armour and garbage-can-lid-shield first event back in 1966. It does change it's rules constantly. As do all the major sports, which have a longer history then the SCA.

Do I realistically have a hope in hell of ever seeing this happen? Nope. I freely acknowledge that it's a lost cause, which is why I don't bring this up very often. But you know what? If people ask me "how do you think the SCA should be run", I can tell them. I've put some thought into it and I think I can support my arguments.

I don't have to STFU, nor do I have to treat the SCA as an all-or-nothing love affair that obligates me to leave something I enjoy 90% of because I disagree about the last 10%.

Comments

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

"They don't have to be popular, they don't have to be knowledgeable about the SCA, they don't have to have leadership abilities of any kind."

While it is not required, it is suprising how many of those who win those tourneys DO have those skills regardless. Most of them are already peers of other colours or well on their way there. If they are training hard for Coronet, they are usually pursuing knighthood and candidates for knighthood are also measured on their service, engagement in the SCA and leadership skills. And their consorts are almost always officers or heavily engaged in the SCA in some other fashion too.

I think you are discounting the enormous amount of work being a Prince or Princess is. Having been a seneschal (among many other types of officers), baroness and princess I can say unequivocably that being princess was by far the hardest, most demanding and least rewarding. All most people see is the fancy figurehead biz, do court, give out awards, get prezzies part and think that that is all the job is. But it IS a job - a demanding one - and 90% of the work occurs between events.

Yes some ill prepared folks do become royals - but thanksfully they mostly rise to the occassion to a reasonable degree. And honestly even having been told at great length what the job would be like did not prepare me for the demands of the job. Which is why a lot of folks only do the job once. Or wait years between reigns. And why some people never enter the list at all cause they suspect it is a ton of work - rightly.

Just because the ruler is chosen by right of arms does not mean they are just stick jocks with no brains. All knights are not stick swinging retards. And all their ladies aren't buckle bunnies. And if you sat in on a Nobles Estate meeting I think you'd be surprised how little we agree on how things and see how laughable the concept of an old-boys club conspiracy is. We can't even agree on what pizza to order forget about how this game should be run : ) Really.

You are completely entitled to your opinion on this James. I would not suggest otherwise. But as I said before I think you are lumping all royals together and throwing some very good and hard working babies out with the dirty bathwater.

[tyroticon.livejournal.com]

While I'm not privy to the conversation in question, the arguments made in the original post don't appear to argue that the SCA is only getting stick jocks for leaders. It only makes the point that the only way to become leader is to be a successful stick jock.

In my opinion, that is to the organization's detriment. That's not because those who make that particular effort aren't otherwise qualified and working hard on your behalf. That's because it limits the pool of individuals qualified for the position for reasons entirely arbitrary to what is required for the position. It means the position can never go to a paraplegic.

The problem isn't how often someone ill-suited to the role gets to assume it. It's how easily someone well-suited to the role is disqualified for reasons that have nothing to do with leadership.

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

And that is a fair comment.

The coversation came out out commentary implying that almost everyone who assumes the role is ill suited - just ot provide context.

But you are right in that there are some great people who will likely never rule under the current system. It's one of the thinks that I've always thought was cool about my guy - that he made so many excellent people princess - people that probably wouldn't have gotten there otherwise.

[jamesq]

I was actually trying to get away from discussions related to conspiracy theories in this post. That's one of the reasons why I didn't cite any particular King/Prince or Kingdom/Principality.

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

I am glad to hear that : )

[jamesq]

Damn. I hate it when I compose a response only to find that someone made all my points better, faster and more concisely then I did.

Thank you tyroticon.

And he doesn't even play in the SCA.

[tyroticon.livejournal.com]

While I'm still stunned to have something I've written qualify as concise, you're quite welcome. My thanks to both you and ya_inga for the further feedback and insight on the subject.

[jamesq]

Please don't confuse my outlining a worse-case scenario as a suggestion that it's the typical scenario. I'm well aware of how hard royals work and I'm generally amazed by the fact that so many of them do rise to the occasion.

I also think that all of your arguments are equally valid if we choose our royals using a different martial art. There's nothing inherently special about heavy fighting that makes them better able to run things. Certainly a white scarf would rightly take offense to the suggestion that they're inherently lacking in service, engagements and leadership skills when compared to a white belt.

All of that's moot to the point I was making though, which was this: "If you don't like it get out" arguments annoy the hell out of me. I know that's not what you were suggesting - I just thought it would be a good jumping-off point for this post, which has been percolating in the back of mind for months now.

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

"There's nothing inherently special about heavy fighting that makes them better able to run things."

You are completely right. No arguement.

But this is a fundamental element of the SCA.

I'm a tradtionalist - as are many folks - and folks get a bit shirty when you poke their traditions. And as annoying as you find the "If you don't like it get out", we find the griping about this fundamental element to the SCA.

That is the source of the "If you don't like it get out" which could more politely be phrased "If you dislike our fundamental traditions, by all means start your own and follow your own path but leave ours alone thank you." But surely it cannot be a surprise to you that people will react poorly to having their traditions and what they may love best about the SCA challenged or picked at.

For example, I take great issue with the idea of fighting with live steel - which is fundamental to several recreation groups. To me it is the daftest thing EVER and would make combat unaccessable to me. But rather than joining that group and then complaining about that tradition and questioning why we can't use safer weapon forms that make combat more accessable to a greater number of people, I instead joined a group whose fundamental concepts and traditions I AM good with.

Hence the many MANY medieval recreation groups - so many different ways to enjoy and experience history. All with their pluses and minuses. I like the SCA best - your mileage may vary.

[jamesq]

"But surely it cannot be a surprise to you that people will react poorly to having their traditions and what they may love best about the SCA challenged or picked at."

It surprises me not at all, which is the main reason why I'm bringing this up here in my LJ and not in (for example) the Avacal Circus. It's also why I don't bring it up at events. Shitting on people is not my thing.

It's still a public post in case people wanted to wander over from other forums if they felt the need to discuss it. I'm not going to hide my opinions, neither am I going to push them into people's faces in an inappropriate place.

As proof I can cite the fact that we've known each other for years and yesterday was probably the first time you've ever heard of my mad scheme.

[ya-inga.livejournal.com]

"As proof I can cite the fact that we've known each other for years"

Gladly so!

" and yesterday was probably the first time you've ever heard of my mad scheme."

Oh I've suspected you were "one of those" ; ) for quite sometime dear. Not as in the closet as you might suspect *HUGE WINK*

I enjoy a good dialogue though - thanks for including me!

[sagaciouslu.livejournal.com]

I'm going to weigh in, mostly because I'm an ignorant noob (henceforth, "IN").

Now, IN is getting sucked into this SCA thing 'cuz he likes archery, likes hanging with the Devil Bunneh, and is truly impressed with the openess, generosity, intelligence, snark and goodwill of the people he has me so far.

As for 'da rules', IN at this point neither knows nor really cares. "So, ya get to be Muckety Muck Dei Gratia Imperator by only by swingin' a stick, eh?" Well, IN is probably never gonna muckety muck; he's too old, and really isn't all that interested in that part of stuff. Does that make it a good rule? Probably not - it means that, while IN might be welcome in the kitchen, IN will likely never get served at head table. IN also thinks that it is probably stupid to exclude a large portion of participants based on gender. Does IN really care? No. IN's involvement is, at this point, completely satisfactory and satisfying.

IN's concern is that there are good people to hang with, good events to attend, and a worthwhile organization to devote some time and energy to. And if the current set of rules thwart IN's invovlement, or make it unpleasant, or make him feel like his work is unappreciated, then IN will spend his time elsewhere.

So, to be really clear, I don't give a rat's ass what rules you wanna play by. If it's not fun, I ain't gonna play. So, if you need to add, change, or remove certain rules to make sure the game stays fun and encourages the participation of INs (not to mention the sanity and happiness of the current crop of hard-working, dedicated and, yea and verily, chivalrous devotees) you really ought to consider doing so.

- teh Badger....

[snooness2]

You and probably everyone else on the list know (or at least suspect) I think it would be great if once in a while one of the other sections of the SCA had a chance to win the throne.... even a game of killer...

There was once a king who declared that his successor would be determined by whom-ever won a war. At that point rules were such that theoretically combat terms were declared by the King... and theoretically he could declare the combat to be an A&S competition - if he so choose.

So this king decided it was decided by the best person to lead a war.... interesting concept. People were upset - Corpera got involved...it was messy.
I think they've clarifies the rules since... or maybe not - our online kingdom rules say combatant's and don't declare what type of combat. hmmmm....
I'm not sure if Corpera has more precise rules (or if I've missed something in the online kingdom laws).

All that being said, traditionally, in Avacal, the combat is some form of one-on-one heavy combat. There are some traditions that in the SCA are not going to change (easily)... and probably not worth butting your head against.

When I initially looked at our bardic is A&S tradition there were a lot of people who argued and nay-say-ed the thought of running separate bardic championships. Yet other kingdoms did have a bardic tradition that was somewhat separate from the A&S competitions. It's taken time but I think Avacal (and AnTir) has come to see the performing arts as part of and yet needing a separate forum from A&S. Bardic competitions for a champion separate from the A&S champion are now held at kingdom level and a number of Baronial/Shire levels. (Not something that's happened in the principality of Avacal yet - but that has more to do with having enough critical mass in the bardic community to run a high level competition).

... which just shows that tradition can change - but it takes a ton of work and enough people willing to sacrifice themselves in the court of public-opinion for it to happen...

The problem is that AnTir was the odd man out in comparison to other kingdoms. In my arguments there was the ability to argue that our lack of bardic champion hurts us when we are compared to (... pick any of the other kingdoms). While I was not part of the process to add a bardic championship at kingdom level, I have been a voice for starting a number of more local level competitions.

I'd love to see a competition for a bardic champion for Avacal - however there are a few other traditions that stand in the way of that... tho ever so often there are changes... and it's slow. Which it should be - small changes eventually cause big ones, and it allows a reasonable community to build around the idea.

.... in your argument about choosing by a method other then heavy combat you don't have the weight of the advantages found in other places to add pressure - or maybe there is - but if you truly want this, and you are willing to walk through the fire and possibly get ostracized for it you'd have to seriously look into the topic more and determine what caused the idea shift in the locations that don't follow the heavy combat only model. Then you'd have to work towards the changes slowly.

Revolutions that happen by dropping single grains of sand are much much more stable then those that occur by dropping a handful of it.

Frankly how we choose our P&P really doesn't bother me enough to want to pursue the issue... I have my own bardic champion/award agenda (as everyone is aware).

PS: if you know any awesome bards that are deserving (not me - I'm not active enough) nominate them for a Griffin's Voice (oooo - shameless plug). (Avacal's bardic award)

[jamesq]

If I had that much of a fire under my ass, I wouldn't restrict myself to the SCA - I'd run for Member of Parliament (with about an equal chance of success I expect). As it is I'm content to merely pick the onions off my hamburger and enjoy the remainder of my meal.

As for Griffin's Voices, I have a few suggestions.

[snooness2]

"Griffin's Voices"
Send letters to the B&B and P&P (or maybe under the circumstances the next P&P... kidding)
;) (and be sure to check it's not one of the two folks who have them)
:P
Gods - I'm completely shameless somedays.

As far as fire under your ass... well I can't attest to that - but you certainly have have a fiery head.
:)
...hey you never know with your success in parliament... but why stick to Canada - conquer the world instead.

[jamesq]

Is there a list of current GVs somewhere, or do I have to search the OP?

[snooness2]

The OP...
but the list, to my knowledge, is short...
Stagin
Annys
... which reminds me I need to change the bards site to reflect that.... hmmm.... plot plot plot

[tyroticon.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering about two things now. Can the winner of the armoured tournament decline to take the crown or coronet? If so, is it possible to enter the tournament as another candidate's champion?

[jamesq]

My dim understanding is that to enter the lists for a crown/coronet tournament, you have to be accepted by the current reign. There's always some little interview involved though I've never actually heard what is said. Presumably they screen the candidates to ensure that only people willing to do the job actually compete.

Now having said that, the SCA is still a volunteer organization and I'd be surprised if people hadn't stepped down after winning due to sudden, unexpected, real-life obligations.

I've never heard of a "designated hitter" for these (or any) tournament. If it's not explicitly against the letter of the rules it's certainly against spirit of them.

[malcolm1066.livejournal.com]

I must say that the episode a few years back when AnTir held its War crown was very interesting, but alas the BOD changed the rules to ensure it was stated "Single combat". I would like to see something along the lines of what Bitter End did for its youth Championship where those poor kids were put through the paces and forced to do combat, A&S, and archery to win. To me that represents the "holy trinity" of the SCA, and gives an apreciation of this game and all its aspects to any "stickjock" that wants to be Prince or King.

Its never going to happen, but its worth talking about for the entertainment value.

M

[jamesq]

Love that picture - I use it as a background on my eeePC.

[snooness2]

As a note... any group (K, P, or B) can require extra on top of what is stipulated by the BOD...
Ergo theoretically, but again unlikely, we could add requirements to all coronet tourneys or even just one every so often that all the enterants must first pass a different tourney to then compete in the coronet....
is: Archery, Rapier, A&S, and Heavy.

[conejita-diabla.livejournal.com]

I've been doing some research, and my understanding is this - to determine the winner of a Crown or Coronet, it must be single, heavy combat (unless permission is obtained from the BoD). However, there can be whatever entrance conditions on that tourney that the current rulers would like. So - you could have (and some places do) an A&S entry be a prereq for entering the Lists. But you cannot have the results of judging those A&S entries have any bearing on the results of the Crown/Coronet without previous permission from the BoD. At least one place has done this, though - the six-fold tourney, or some such thing. Heavy, chess, A&S, and a couple of other things. However, the BoD's later report on it was this:

"Six-fold Coronet Lists:
The Board received a written report from Viscountess Hilary of Serendip, Princess at the time of the holding of the Lists, and a written and oral report from Her Highness Maythen of Elfhaven, winner of the Lists. Her Highness also reported on the Curia she held to find out the opinion of the populace concerning such lists and whether they
should be used in the future for the selection of rulers.

The issue brought up three major questions: how to enhance the arts and sciences, the selection process for Kings and Princes, and the necessary qualifications for Kings and Princes.(and
also Consorts, by implication). It was generally agreed that a ruler should have competence in more than fighting, but it was also generally agreed that a ruler should be a fighter. Various ways were suggested in which prospective entrants in
a Crown or Coronet List could demonstrate proficiency in areas like heraldry, dancing, etc. as a demonstration of their qualifications, but nobody suggested that Corpora be changed to
allow the six-fold list as an established method for doing so.

It was agreed that it had been an interesting experiment and that much had been learned by it, and that it was not the answer."

Some other prereq-type ideas, in addition to A&S, are heraldry requirements, documentation/persona requirements, and one person who wants to have an open book quiz on Corpora. ;-) Another suggestion was similar to something done at Whipping Winds - have archery targets to represent all the fighters, and their consorts have 30 seconds to try to take out competition. Heee...

[conejita-diabla.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've heard some amazing things about War Crown. *sigh*

I'm not sure if you'll get a notification of my response further down, but I responded later in this thread with some research I've been doing into the issue. You may find it interesting.

[jamesq]

If you're logged in and click on the "home" link you get a list of all comments on your threads, sorted from most recent to least recent.

It's great because I occasionally get comments from posts that were posted in the dim and misty past.

[conejita-diabla.livejournal.com]

Here's one of the responses I got when I asked for people's memories of War Crown, btw...

"My most memorable part was the following morning. The tensions in the air was audible. There was not a single fighter NOT preparing for the war. It was quiet in an erie way. I was walking back to my campsite and the only conversations seemed to be questions of "Have you declared?" Not for who, but just have you. Then I passed one very seasoned fighter in well loved armor striding with pride and purpose towards the field. Helmet, sword and shield in hand. He looked right at me with a smile that beamed and stated "It's a good day to make a king" Right there explained the reason they were all working so hard. It was now no longer about two men in a list field. It was about hundreds of people working together to create a King. I am glad I was there to witness it. I don't think it will ever happen again in An Tir but it was a damn cool thing to be a part of."

[snooness2]

That's a shame....
The game should be about hundreds of people working together to make a king.

I know a minor sliver and a tone of rumour about some of the nasty that happened after in regards to the BOD's decision to declare it a single combatant thing.

I wonder if it would be possible to then pre-requisite a tourney (to get to the top two or three/four contenders)... war (to see who won the war to choose the top two)... tourney (to choose the winner).
Basically mimicing the idea of a battle that is stopped when the two leaders make the decision to go to single combat rather then waste their troops.
... okay this doesn't really get up away from the heavy fighters only being able to hold crown... but this does give more of the populace a stake in who would be choosen.

Or just War... tourney... hmmm...
Fight a war where those groups you defeat join your side until there are only two left - they then do single combat with each other. (that would make combat archers a hot commodity)... and certianly would have an interesting effect on the pre-alliance discussions & bring in a lot of subterfuge (okay maybe not a great idea).

[conejita-diabla.livejournal.com]

*nod* Definitely some interesting thoughts, though. I'll be pondering this as well - what are some feasible ways to work in these concepts? Been thinking about the whole "period" idea - i.e. trying to mimic the way that people became rulers in the past. Yes, it was often through fighting, but usually in wars, where their ability to recruit (through whatever means) fighters to their cause was imperative, as well as the ability to lead. And not only that, but when people were born into a royal line, they were trained from an early age in the arts of leadership. What did that training entail, and how can we work something like that into the selection? Hmmm....

[manyra.livejournal.com]

(warning cynical & generalistic) I would also add that heavy combat is our money shot. It's loud, tense, fast paced, sometimes painful and very fun to watch. It's our gladitorial fights. For most people, it's the first thing they see in the SCA. It's what the media likes to focus on. It's our favourite marketing tool.

That's not to take away from the other activities - it's just that heavy fighting usually attacts the most spectators - for better event attendance. And running a kingdom is very expensive. It is funded by event profits and donations.

[jamesq]

I agree with this assessment. Heavy fighting is the bull-goose activity of the SCA and it is damn fun to watch. I grow more excited by it year after year for two reasons:

1. I actually know some fighters and can identify most of the others in a dim I-remember-seeing-that-guy-around way.
   
2. I have a better sense of what makes a good fight and can appreciate a good solid hit when I see one.

Remember though that my mad scheme would not take any of that away - it simply removes the exclusivity. My gut feeling is that half the reigns is a good number. For example, it would make the "Summer King" a heavy fighter during the all-important war season and the "Winter King" would be a non-armoured discipline.

A big problem if it were accepted would be old-timers thinking the Winter King wasn't a "real" king. The Olympics had this same problem for years and years (and it lingers to this day), where the summer games where thought of as the "real Olympics" and the winter games where derided as being a kind of johnny-come-lately.

Meh. It's all just idle speculation at this point.

[snooness2]

I think I'd list Rapier as a huge money shot too....
they genereate as least as much interest - if only for the shtick and the clothes.

IMO people either notice rapier first or heavy - it just depends who's on the field.

I think it also just depends which side of the site you hang out on... I could name all the rapier fighters before I could reliably ID my first heavy on the eric.

Archery, A&S (and if you want to be sticky in your listing of champions - Bardic) are definately the least obviously observable to the man on the street.

[conejita-diabla.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, though, whenever I've talked to non-SCA people about what I do, it's almost *always* archery, and not heavy, that catches their attention. And I've gotten a handful of people to come out and start getting involved solely through archery. I've even had it commented on many times in my OkC profile and other similar places.

[jamesq]

Archery has the advantage that the targets don't hit back so it's easier to picture yourself doing it. Can't really say that about heavy or rapier. I know that if I had eat a rattan sandwich to join the SCA I'd think twice about it.

[snooness2]

I think Archery and/or A&S/Bardic is what people try first when they decide to start.

But what they see first - what makes them stop and say "Hey that is really cool, who are you? what do you do?" is the fighting.

While archery has the cool factor going for it you are all (except for a few events) at a range doing your thing - out of the public eye.

Bardic is an evening thing done when most people have gone or as background.

A&S... at least the costumes is more noticable as background or as 'are you in a play?' type observations.

Archery and A&S are great discussion topics to get someone in who's already thought... medieval - cool - can I do that! since they are initally more approchable in terms of costs and knowledge. (As an ex-archer I've encountered the off the street veiw that archery takes less skill then either rapier or heavy)

But they don't have the ability to attract people of the street in the same fashion. Calgary is lucky you lot now have the outdoor range/campsite that's right up against the egde of the city and actually causes a person off the street (sort of) to stop and watch. But that's an exception and not a rule.

Trust me... it took ages to find a decent regular place for the Edmonton folks to shoot... and there were issues with booking competition times... grrr (in my frustrated autocrat voice). It seems to have been solved with the switch to the new place - but I've not been out there (having been away-ish for the last three years).